Topic: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

Assume the following scenario: I route an audio channel in Cubase or Pro Tools to a hardware output of my MF II or ADI-8. This output is directly connected with a patch cable to another hardware input. While playing back, I re-record the signal to another track in Cubase or Pro Tools. I would think that if delay compensation works correctly the audio on both tracks should be exactly time-aligned. Do you agree?

Anyway, I noticed that if I re-record the audio through the MF II, the re-recorded signal is delayed by exactly 15 samples or 0.34ms. If I do the same with the ADI-8, the time delay is 32 samples or 0.73ms. Why is this?

This time delay becomes very relevant when using hardware inserts like analog compressors. These devices do not have latency, so theoretically, I should be able to use a hardware compressor as insert effect in Cubase or Pro Tools and not worry about latency. Even a delay of just a few samples is unacceptable when doing parallel compression. So what I need to do is manually set a latency value of 0.34ms for hardware inserts using MF in-/outputs and 0.73ms for inserts that use ADI-8.

A friend of mine uses a Digi003 interface with PT9. He says he can leave the latency values for hardware inserts at 0.0ms and his tracks are still perfectly phase-aligned. So why do I need to set a hardware latency for my RME converters?

2

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

The 'newer' MF II is a bit quicker than the old MF, therefore - and because the driver can not know which unit is in use - the latency is not perfectly compensated. When using the ADI-8 the latency can not be compensated automatically anyway, because the unit can not know wat you connect to it. And even then it would be forced to use one value, which might be right for analog I/O or digital SPDIF or ADAT - but not for all of them.

Your argument about parallel compression is not correct. You can not use a digital track and a second DA-Compress-AD digital track and mix them together. Simply because something like 0 sample offset doesn't exist. There is always a subsample delay left which can not be compensated or controlled, coloring the overall sound/effect. So if you want to do that you have to also AD-DA the dry track. And then the latency is of no interest anymore.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

I think the additional latency is most always of interest. Sometimes I may parallel compress only the overheads, sometimes I use an external compressor for the snare drum only. According to you, I would have to DA-AD every single drum track in both cases in order to preserve phase coherence of all drum tracks. This is not practicable.

It makes sense to me that an ADAT interface causes a small additional latency. But I don't quite understand why the driver of the MFII does not fully compensate latency. Does this additional latency also occur in newer RME interfaces like the FF800 or the FF UFX?

Just to be clear: This really is not a big issue for me, as long as I know the latency values. I was just curious if it was normal and why it occurs.

4

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

I wrote that in my reply, don't know how to say it differently.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

I'm afraid I don't understand your explanation. When RME first introduced the Multiface there was only one driver for one device. So there is no reason why latency should be higher than what it says in the control panel. Now, with the MF2 being quicker than the MF1 but using the same driver, it should be possible to have a driver that perfectly compensates the latency of the MF2.

So what about the Fireface Interfaces? Do they have the same "additional latency"?

6 (edited by Randyman... 2011-11-28 01:17:18)

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

From what I gather, the driver can't tell which Multiface BOB is connected (MF-I or MF-II).  RME could likely add a setting in the driver control panel to allow the user to select appropriately.

MC's comment about needing to run the dry and compressed signals through the DA/AD loop does make sense.  People generally record at 44/48/88/96K.  The actual AD/DA chips run MUCH faster than that (called oversampling IIRC) and then "down-sample" to the resultant "base clock" - so they will have offsets/delays which end up as sub-sample delays, and cannot be 100% accounted for with the down-sampled 44/48/88/96K rates.  You can get very close (within a sample), but not exact unless you perform the same DA/AD loop to the parallel "dry" signal.

I haven't done a lot of mixed parallel processing from the DAW (I generally do it "up front" during tracking and record the "dry" and "parallel compression" to their own analog inputs - makes it "1st generation analog" - no DA/AD loops, and is completely phase aligned to the dry with complete wet/dry control in the DAW!) - but even if you get a "0.00" timed DA/AD loop, it can still be off when compared to the "dry" by less than a sample and there's nothing you can do to correct it in a DAW (unless there is some sort of delay plug-in that allows sub-sample delays - basically going to the 3rd decimal place!  I don't think that's possible, but I guess a delay that "oversamples" might be able to get closer?).

FWIW - Nuendo does report "0.00" for a Multiface-I DA/AD loop, so the driver seems to be calibrated for the older MF-I box (to the nearest sample).  But then if you add the ADI-8 to the MF via ADAT, you'll be off again as the driver has no idea what external converters you are using (and their associated delays).  This particular issue has come up again and again, and is basically a limitation of ASIO-2 (ASIO only reports one set of I/O offsets to the host IIRC).  As long as the external AD/DA converter is "Slower" than the RME's internal AD/DA chips (as reported by the driver), then Nuendo/Cubase can appropriately align the loop (again, only to the nearest sample).  If the external AD/DA is "quicker", then Nuendo/Cubase can't cope with it as they can't specify negative delays on the "External Inserts"

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

That's interesting. Thanks for your explanations. So it would be possible to have a driver for the MFII that only has a sub-sample delay.

If I enter 0.34ms as latency value for external hardware, the waveforms are absolutely time-aligned for my eyes. I don't hear any artifacts either. But you are certainly right, if I do parallel compression with external hardware, I should ideally DA-AD the untreated signal too.

My question wasn't only about parallel compression though. As as said, if I compress a snare drum with an external compressor I absolutely need to enter the additional latency of 0.34ms in Cubase or Pro Tools, because otherwise the snare track will be off against the other drum tracks. In this case I am sure that a sub-sample delay will not do any harm.

I am still wondering how the newer RME interfaces behave in this regard.

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

hammerton wrote:

As as said, if I compress a snare drum with an external compressor I absolutely need to enter the additional latency of 0.34ms in Cubase or Pro Tools, because otherwise the snare track will be off against the other drum tracks.

I think you might want to rethink your expectations here. This "latency" will certainly not cause any audible offset between individual tracks. For it to be measurable, you'd have to make sure every single drum mic's distance from the drum it picks up is precisely the same (and that is not considering crosstalk). 0.34 ms is about 10 cm in mic distance.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

Well, the snare drum is not time-aligned on the various drum tracks anyway. It occurs first on the snare close mic, then maybe on the kick or hihat mic, on the tom mics and last on the overheads. But moving the mic 10cm from the snare is not the same as delaying the snare signal by 0.34ms. I just don't want to mess with the complex phase relations between individual drums. So if I KNOW there's a delay of 0.34ms if I DA-AD the snare track, then of course I am gonna adjust it.

Re: Multiface II + ADI-8: Latency not fully compensated

FYI - In Cubase - It will automatically correct for latent DA/AD loops when using an "External Insert" - if you manually "ping" the "External Insert" loop, it should align the loop for you (to the nearest sample - not 100.0000% exact, but as close as possible).  The only limitation is the loop must show up as a delay (behind) and not appear "ahead" as will be the case if you use an external converter that is "faster" than the RME's reported AD/DA offsets.

What I do find odd now that I think about it - Since the MF-II is "faster" than the MF-I, and from what I've seen the MF-I is correctly accounted for in the RME Driver - shouldn't the MF-II tracks come back EARLY (and not "late/delayed")?  You report a 15 sampe "delay" with the MF-II (has me scratching my head), and a 32 sampe delay with the ADI-8 (that makes sense).  If the driver is reporting AD/DA offset values from the MF-I as I assume, how is this possible that the MF-II comes back later/delayed?

RME - Any insight?

PS - I also agree that you should keep relative phase intact (not a big fan of "time aligning" multiple mics as you can "focus" on one reference drum to the detriment to the rest of the drums in the kit) - so your concerns are valid IMO...

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8