Topic: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Hi,

I am still trying to get 96kHz optical SPDIF out of my FF400. I know that with ADAT there is a limit of 48kHz and thus the FF400 goes into S/MUX. Is this also the case when I set SPDIF out to optical? As far as I know, optical SPDIF in general is not limited to 48kHz.

The problem is that when I connect the FF400 at 96 to the optical line input of my Sony PCM-D50, the latter invariably identifies the signal as being 48/16! According to Sony though, the recorder accepts a 96/24 input.

Please help me understand what's going on, as this is most important for my music projects.

Thanks, and best regards,

Louis de Stoutz

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

SPDIF Optical will go up to 192. Set the FF as Clock Master and connect SPDIF Out to In. Then you'll see what's going on.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

3

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Does it help to set the FF 400 output to Professional (in the Settings dialog)?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

DF: thank you, I can see it now.

MC: unfortunately this just gives an "unknown data" error on the PCM-D50.

So, that would mean that the recorder accepts the data stream, but interprets it incorrectly.
Header incompatibility? Is there a tool for analysing the format of a data stream?

Just out of curiosity, I checked with 44.1 :
PCM-D50 recognizes this, but still limits itself to 16, although it is capable of 24.

If I manage to realize this connection, this will be an amazing portable recording unit!
Much better than to go with the XLR adaptor Sony offers as an expensive yet unsatisfying accessory.

Thanks so far,
regards
Louis de Stoutz

5

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

The 16 to 24 bit error - I don't know, but the double speed error may be our Channel Status. It sends the single speed value, as this was the standard earlier. That has changed some time ago, maybe this recorder is picky about getting the correct information.

> Is there a tool for analysing the format of a data stream?

Ouch...no, there is no DIGICheck... :roll

I'll see if we can update that soon.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

That would be phantastic, thanks for looking into it!
LdS

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Matthias, just for your information:

I tested the PCM-D50 with other sources, and it took the 24 bits without problem from my motherboard and from a DVD player.
Could it be a 32bits fp issue? Could there be a way to force the FF400 into 24?

With kind regards
Louis

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Many thanks for firmware revision 1.69 !
You folks are incredible: not only the best products, but also the best service!

96kHz is now being recognized by the PCM-D50.
Unfortunately, there still is the 16bit issue, and this is not less important.
There must be a way to achieve it, see my previous post dated 2009-09-03.

Just a bit more magics please?

With gratitude and best regards,

Louis de Stoutz

9

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

I really have no clue which part of the channel status Sony thinks is a reason to limit it to 24 bit. It is fully valid and has been like that ever since. You can use DIGICheck to check it yourself, and also check the differences to your other sources.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Let me first make sure we understand each other: Sony takes the FF400 output, which is 24, and invariably interprets it as being 16.

I did several tests and checked them with DIGICheck. From my web-research it seems that the Channel Status Data contain information about the word length also in consumer mode, not only in professional mode as stated in the DIGICheck Help file. But it is in a different position, and I'm not too sure where.

What I can tell you though, are the results of my tests. There was a strong correlation between the word-length, as identified by Sony, and what you call "Reserved byte 4" (leftmost) in the Channel Status Display of DIGICheck.

The 24 bit output of FF400 has a constant value of 00 (for all the bytes 4-13 and 14-23), whereas my other sources put varying values in byte 4:
- computer sound card (24 bits):  08    Sony sees it as 24 bits
- newer DVD player (16 bits):      02     Sony sees it as 16 bits
- older CD player (16bits):           00     Sony sees it as 16 bits

So, here is my interpretation of the results (total guess, I'm no expert):
08 : 24 bits
(04 : 20 bits ?)
02 : 16 bits
The default value of 00 is being treated by Sony conservatively as 16 bits rather than 24.

Could this make any sense? I hope it helps you at least on the way towards a solution.

Maybe I could test a patched version which constantly puts a 08, to see if this pleases my recorder.
If positive, an additional option on the main tab of the FireFace driver might be an easy solution.
(I don't know if you need 00 at all, maybe for devices that like to detect the word-length themselves?)

Best regards,
Louis de Stoutz

11

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Perfect analysis! We'll check the details. Thanks a lot.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

LdeStoutz,   
FYI  I noticed another manufacturer wrestling with S/PDIFaberrations of the Sony PCM- D50.
Here's a passage from their webpage  <http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496/1.php> :

" July 22, 2009: Firmware Update for Sony PCM-D50
Sony's PCM-D50 audio recorder is the only digital audio recorder we know that doesn't determine an S/PDIF data stream's sample rate from the data stream's clock. Instead it examines the S/PDIF header data. If the data stream's clock and the header data are different, it gets the sample rate wrong. The result is that it will record a 96 Kilosample per second recording and label it in the WAV file header as 48 KS/s. When you play it back, it plays back twice as fast
Sony doesn't acknowledge the problem and will not fix it. We've updated Mic24296 V2's firmware to give the Sony what it wants. Now it can't make the mistake....".

13

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Louis, your analysis has been right. There IS an additional bit indication, that nobody needs, nobody wants and nobody uses - except the D-50 :-)

We try to fix this via firmware update in some time.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Tom:
Thank you for the interesting info. The sample rate issue though has already been solved by the wonderfully responsive RME-team by adapting to the latest standard (not totally the D-50's fault). What remains is the bit depth issue.

Matthias:
Ok, ok, I apologize for being the only FireFace owner to want to connect it to a D-50 :-)
But, (sorry, there is a little "but"), if it really was only a D-50 issue, why would my computer's sound card comply with it, and even more so, why would my Cambridge-Audio DVD player, which certainly isn't in the "pleasing Sony" business?

Anyway, I shall be forever grateful if you do the mod, and I will do my best to increase your sales: The D-50 is very nice and popular piece of equipment, and I've noticed that e.g. in the low budget film business, there are several people looking for a piece of hardware to put in front of it, in order to compensate for its lack of XLR inputs. I am a total fan of the "Transformer"-FireFace, that piece of hardware/software that can be transformed into so many different devices, and it will be a pleasure for me to recommend it to fellow D-50 users.

Mit ganz herzlichen Gr?ssen
Louis

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Hi Matthias and everybody else,

I realize that the modif (bit-depth sub-code data in digital audio-stream) we have been discussing also off-forum unfortunately didn't make it into revision 1.70. Is there any hope for the foreseeable future?

In the meantime, I found an interesting thread at [http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96097.0;wap2] where that very subject is being discussed (read at least until page 6/8 to get the whole picture). As it seems, the problem was addressed already back in 2008 by M-Audio and Lunatec (for the V3). Also, the Sony recorder is not the only newer equipment to insist on the presence of this sub-code.

With kind regards

Louis

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Any update on this? Have just got a D-50 (wonderful unit!) and wanted to use it with FF800 at 24bit over optical, (and also the upcoming Babyface).

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

I'm in the same boat. I've had a D-50 for a while now and always assumed this was some issue related to my PC configuration. I'd really appreciate it if we could get this fixed in the release of the firmware. My last album was mixed to 16 bit because of this...

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Hi Gr8h8m and georgeludwig, and thanks! I'm glad to get some wind in my sails at last.

Now, here is my proposal to RME (please correct me if I am wrong): It is my understanding, that we are talking of one or two bits in the data-flow that would have to be set to 1 rather than 0 to express a bit depth of 24. Isn't it though, that the output of the FF400/800 is always 24 bit? If this is the case, couldn't you just "hardwire" the necessary 1s (implement them as constants rather than as the result of a bit-depth setting)? This wouldn't imply any programming or (much) additional space, and would at last allow us to work! Of course it is a quick fix and hurts the programmer's aesthetics' feelings, but, if my assumptions are right, it wouldn't do any harm and could be a temporary solution, until time and resources are found for something better.

So please, Matthias and whoever concerned, could you reconsider...?

With patient regards, Louis.

19

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

That was the plan some months ago (the hardware output will be fixed to indicate 24 bit). Still waiting for a firmware with that feature myself...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Hi there. Any update on this?

21

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Yes, got a first version working correctly - for the Babyface :-)

Don't worry, will come soon for the Firefaces.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Excellent news! Thank you.

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Hi there. Any news?
Still waiting patiently (for over a year now...).
The firmware is getting jealous of the driver
which got 3 updates in August only... :-)

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

I'm waiting for this too.
Please post an update for FireFace 400 so we can use the Sony PCM D50 in 24 bit mode smile Thanks!

25

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Version 1.71 is in the archive on the web (which says 1.70).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

In the archive I only find this:
"Mac OS X SL (10.6) Intel driver for Fireface 400 / 800 / UFX, version 2.90. Supports 10.5 in 32 bit, 10.6 in 32 bit and 64 bit."

And in the drivers section I find this:
"Mac OS X Intel Flash Update Tool for Fireface 400 and Fireface 800. Update to firmware revision 1.70 and 2.77."

I installed the last one and flashed it over to the FF400. It says 1.70 up to date (not 1.71), and still no 24 bit on the PCM D50 sad

Any suggestions? Thanks!

27

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Sorry, this special version is at this time only available as Windows flash tool.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Well - add me to the list of Sony D50 owners that would like to see 24/96 working. I am on a Mac running Lion, and am up to the latest firmware/driver releases. In fact, I just bought my second Fireface 800!

Thanks!

Pete

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

MC wrote:

Sorry, this special version is at this time only available as Windows flash tool.

Ok, any possibility to make a mac version too?
Thanks a lot!

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Sooner or later, there will be a Mac version... You can always install the firmware on a PC, I see no reason why the current Mac driver wouldn't work with it.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Well, the current Mac driver didn't solve our problem. That's why. Thanks anyway, we'll wait 2 more years then or try to find a PC.

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

This requires:

a) A PC (I have none)
b) A firewire card in that PC

Using a virtual PC under VMWare Fusion would not work, as there is no support for Firewire.

How hard can it be to slap together a Mac firmware loader?

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

plyall wrote:

This requires:

a) A PC (I have none)
b) A firewire card in that PC

Using a virtual PC under VMWare Fusion would not work, as there is no support for Firewire.

How hard can it be to slap together a Mac firmware loader?

RME do not generally 'slap together' a release. They release things when they have tested them. If it was that easy I'm sure they would have released a mac version as well. Have you asked about a timetable for a mac release?

RME are a small company, we get to ask the actual developers questions in this forum! Even on weekends and holidays!

Chill out a bit bro.

Isaac P

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

A Windows version will come... We're talking weeks here, not years... fryingpan
So please have a little more patience.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

RME Support wrote:

A Windows version will come... We're talking weeks here, not years... fryingpan
So please have a little more patience.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

You mean mac version?

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

MC wrote:

Version 1.71 is in the archive on the web (which says 1.70).

I have same problem with DBX pre Motu 4 pre and Bheringer 96/24. Next week I have a recording section with Fireface 800 and I would like to use the Sony D50 as a backup unit. Could you tell me what is the firmware version that support Sony D50 Spidif input?
By the way DBX Sony Motu and Bheringer don't want to fix the problem. I think RME is professional Company; ok you don't have just in time solutions but you try to solve the customers problems!

Thank you for your customers support filosofie.

- San Fedele Auditorium Recording Studio Milano Italy -

37

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

The Mac FUT including 171 for the FF 400 can be downloaded here:

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/fut_mac_fire_171.zip

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

MC wrote:

The Mac FUT including 171 for the FF 400 can be downloaded here:

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/fut_mac_fire_171.zip

Fantastic!! It seems to be working now!! Thanks!

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

MC wrote:

The Mac FUT including 171 for the FF 400 can be downloaded here:

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/fut_mac_fire_171.zip

Grazie/Danke

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

MC wrote:

The Mac FUT including 171 for the FF 400 can be downloaded here:

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/fut_mac_fire_171.zip

The link is not present right now, is there a new one?

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/fut_mac_fire_x86.zip

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Danke!

Roberto Missoli
Auditorium San Fedele Milano

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

I very sorry but I still have the problem.

Configuration:
Fireface 800 (27F)
Version 3.09
Unit #41FDA27F v2.77
Kernal driver v3.09

and
Sony PCM-D50 S-PDIF input

The problem is very easy to describe. The Sony is able to reconize only a S-PDIF 44.1 16 bit format  from the Fireface, if the frequecy is 96.000 kHZ the Sony unit display as 48kHz 16 bit.
I tried to select the SPDIF output to Professional but Sony display the message "Unknown data".
I think is the origianal PCM-D50 problem.
Have some of you a solution for this configutarion?

Roberto

44

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Yes, it said FF 400, not 800. Sorry but for the FF 800 this change is not possible. A workaround would be to use a SPDIF to SPDIF device which generates its own channel status at the SPDIF output.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

MC wrote:

Yes, it said FF 400, not 800. Sorry but for the FF 800 this change is not possible. A workaround would be to use a SPDIF to SPDIF device which generates its own channel status at the SPDIF output.

In order to add channels to our Acousmonium we have in program to buy a new FF. If we buy a FFUFX or FFUC  have we the same Sony PCM-D50 problem as with the FF800? (I know is a Sony problem and not RME  but we use PCM-D50 as a back-up and we prefer to use the RME AD conversion)

Roberto

"Acousmonium is the sound diffusion system, its consists up to 80 loudspeakers of differing size and shape, and we use it for  concerts of electroacoustic music held at the S.Fedele Auditorium; each loudspeaker is like a music intrument in a orchestra."

46

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

UC and UFX do not have that compatibility issue.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

MC wrote:

Yes, it said FF 400, not 800. Sorry but for the FF 800 this change is not possible. A workaround would be to use a SPDIF to SPDIF device which generates its own channel status at the SPDIF output.

So if I keep the SPDIF out signal from FF800 and send it to FF400 SPDIF input and then from FF400 SPDIF optical out to the Sony D50 input do you think it should work fine?

Best regards.
Roberto Missoli

48

Re: SPDIF out 96kHz - Pls help newbie

Yes.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME