1 Topic by tritonus (edited by tritonus 2008-06-26 17:21:11)

  • From: Stuttgart (Germany)
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 48

Topic: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Dear colleagues,

knowing that this is not a specific RME problem I want to describe what we discovered when we put an RME Expresscard into our Samsung P500 Laptop:

The Expresscard is not locked at all! So a little pull on the attached cable and the card is "offline". This has happened with two different Expresscards (MADI Face and HDSPe ExpressCard).

The design and standards of the ExpressCard is a mess (that's not RME's fault).

But I want the convince RME that there must be something significant done, otherwise the risque under "on the road" conditions is by far too high.

I know from Google that also other users of Expresscards (not RME products) are complaining about this missing lock mechanism.

Has anyone any idea how this problem can be solved?


Regards

Andreas Neubronner

Andreas Neubronner
Tritonus Musikproduktion GmbH, Stuttgart (Germany)
www.tritonus.de

tritonus's Website

2 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
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  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,813

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Tape it to the laptop. Sorry, but there is no other way...mechanically the ExpressCard is not a standard, but a joke.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • From: Stuttgart (Germany)
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 48

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

This doesn't sound too promising!!no:


Regards

Andreas Neubronner

Andreas Neubronner
Tritonus Musikproduktion GmbH, Stuttgart (Germany)
www.tritonus.de

tritonus's Website

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,547

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

I know that this doesn't solve the problem, but if the Expresscard were locked, you could still pull out the Firewire cable... With the exception of BNC and XLR, which computer or audio interface has a really safe lock machanism? USB, Firewire, Toslink, TRS, power connectors, all can be pulled out without excessive force. And if the Expresscard and FW cable were safely locked, pulling the cable could make the whole laptop come crashing to the floor... ed: rant

You could also tape the MADI cable or the MADIface itself to the table or wherever the laptop is positioned, this would keep it from moving.

Since all laptops are not created equal, I see no way of designing a universal lock mechanism...

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • From: Stuttgart (Germany)
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 48

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

I just went into a big computer store and checked out other notebooks with ExpressCard slots. It's in all of them the same problem (somethings less and sometimes more). It gives me headaches to know that this connection is so unreliable!!


Best regards Herr Fuchs

Andreas Neubronner

Andreas Neubronner
Tritonus Musikproduktion GmbH, Stuttgart (Germany)
www.tritonus.de

tritonus's Website

  • Registered: 2008-06-22
  • Posts: 15

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

While it's not ideal, I imagine that you could attach some self adhesive Velcro to the underneath of the card and laptop and simply Velcro it in place.

By putting it on the underside of the device and laptop you will not interfere with the function or aesthetics of the card or laptop.

Simple and a bit of a hack, but I expect it will work.

Cheers.

7 Reply by SShields (edited by SShields 2008-07-02 12:19:28)

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 2007-05-05
  • Posts: 33

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

I have mentioned the National Instruments product before (see link to manual below). Apparently scientists are also concerned about accidental cable/card disconnects during critical experiments and have developed a stain relief for laptops. I am ordering one of the strain reliefs from National Instruments I and will report back with photos if it seems to work well.

http://www.ni.com/pdf/manuals/321620a.pdf
http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/11950

  • From: Stuttgart (Germany)
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 48

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

I wonder how this construction will be able to fix the ExpressCard itself. The possible loss of the cable is NOT the problem. It's the loss of the CARD, i.e. that the card slides out of the slot.

Andreas Neubronner

Andreas Neubronner
Tritonus Musikproduktion GmbH, Stuttgart (Germany)
www.tritonus.de

tritonus's Website

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 2007-05-05
  • Posts: 33

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Take a look at the diagrams in the manual. The device clamps the cable just as it exits the card. Therefore, it would seem to fix both the cable and the card into position.

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,547

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Here's a picture of a MADIface card with the clamp. It holds the card quite well laterally, and on my laptop, pulling the card out is not much easier than pulling out a Cardbus card or a Firewire/USB plug... The thing cost me ? 10 including shipping, retail. It's called Exsys EX-10000.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

http://www.rme-audio.com/support/madiface_adapter.jpg

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • From: Stuttgart (Germany)
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 48

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Hi folks,

once again: this tiny little toy doesn't help really (sorry, Herr Fuchs). I was in a big computer store and checked more than twenty different laptops with ExpressCard-slot (34mm and 54 mm-slots). The problem is always obvious. The ExpressCard is not locked in the slot and only a little pull on the cable let the card slide out of the slot. There are little differences between the various brands only. The Exsys EX-10000 causes only a bit more stability of 34mm-cards which are inserted into a 54mm slot. It stabilizes the card only vertical but NOT horizontal. And there's the problem.

Sorry, but I must say: problem not solved at all (knowing that this is NOT a specific RME problem).

Regards

Andreas Neubronner

Andreas Neubronner
Tritonus Musikproduktion GmbH, Stuttgart (Germany)
www.tritonus.de

tritonus's Website

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,547

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Hi,

I never claimed that this would completely solve the problem. Having the card more firmly in place laterally in a 54 slot definitely helps, though. Also, "this tiny little toy" might actually make it easier to tape the setup to the laptop with Velcro or something of that kind, as Matthias suggested.

Another solution would be to tape the FW cable to the table. In this situation, added lateral stability will prevent the card from moving if the laptop is moved.

The funny thing is that (at least on my laptop) the Expresscard does somehow lock into place, and can also be released by pushing it in first. Unfortunately, this does not keep it from being pulled straight out. rant

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

13 Reply by SShields (edited by SShields 2008-08-18 00:12:01)

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 2007-05-05
  • Posts: 33

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

As I mentioned, I have taken some images of the National Instruments device which can clamp to cables or laptop cards of any type. The complete slide show with captions is available on my Picasa account with Google at:

[large]Slide Show of National Instruments laptop clamp[/large]

http://picasaweb.google.com/MIDI.panic/NationalInstrumentsLaptopClampForTypeIICardsExpressCards/photo#5231813146739508962

http://picasaweb.google.com/MIDI.panic/NationalInstrumentsLaptopClampForTypeIICardsExpressCards/photo#5231813228648206466

Alternative placement (below): device clamped to card only, allowing connection/disconnection of firewire cable while the card remains securely held in place with the clamp.

http://picasaweb.google.com/MIDI.panic/NationalInstrumentsLaptopClampForTypeIICardsExpressCards/photo#5231813175288896738

  • From: Stuttgart (Germany)
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 48

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Thank you!

This seems to be exactly the kind of tools we need. I doesn't look too pretty no: but very efficent cool .

Do you have any idea how we can buy this thing in Germany?


Thanks again

Andreas Neubronner

Andreas Neubronner
Tritonus Musikproduktion GmbH, Stuttgart (Germany)
www.tritonus.de

tritonus's Website

  • Ulrich
  • S/Mux specialist
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  • Registered: 2008-05-31
  • Posts: 315

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Anyway, it's sad that we have to rely on such clumsy solutions. I'm about to purchase the MADIface as well, so I will run in such problems soon...

Fortunately I still own the old version of the CardBus-Interface using that flat connector which can be locked to the card (for connecting the Digiface). First I was sceptical about this, but it has prooved to be reliable. Why did RME change this connector...?

Can anybody here make any statements on using the MADIface in real world? Any surprises besides the mechanics?

Ulrich

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 2007-05-05
  • Posts: 33

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

tritonus wrote:

Do you have any idea how we can buy this thing in Germany?

Try the link below.
Deutschland = http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/de/nid/11950
English = http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/11950

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,547

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Ulrich wrote:

Fortunately I still own the old version of the CardBus-Interface using that flat connector which can be locked to the card (for connecting the Digiface). First I was sceptical about this, but it has prooved to be reliable. Why did RME change this connector...?

The problem here is not the connection between the cable and the card, but the connection of the card in its slot. If you pull the cable on your old Cardbus hard enough, you will also be able to pull out the card, if nothing breaks...
Using the old type of connector with the MADIface would not have made the card connect to the laptop any better.

The change means you can use any standard Firewire cable (e.g. as a replacment) and no longer need a proprietary one.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,547

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3593

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Ulrich
  • S/Mux specialist
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  • Registered: 2008-05-31
  • Posts: 315

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Today I got my MADIface. I also got the EXSYS-10000 Daniel mentioned above.

Nevertheless, mechanically it's a mess. It's hard to believe that you have to spend 1K EUR for this solution and still have to tape it together with the laptop in order to run it! Since the RME developpers do recordings by themselves I would have expected a more "real world proof" solution. Maybe RME could at least include the EXSYS-10000 to the package.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for a ADI-648, and then I will go outside to record a little bit. Hope I won't forget the tape...

Regards,
Ulrich

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 2007-05-05
  • Posts: 33

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

To try and be proactive about this, I have written the PCMCIA (http://pcmcia.org/index.htm ) at their general email address (office@pcmcia.org ) to ask that they address this at their next meeting (scheduled for September 16 in Philadelphia, USA). I am not hopeful that they will do anything about the problem, but perhaps it?s worth trying to raise their awareness of the problems that their new ExpressCard standard is creating.

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,547

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Ulrich wrote:

Since the RME developpers do recordings by themselves I would have expected a more "real world proof" solution.

What if the standard just does not provide for such a solution (apart from better lateral fixation with an adapter)?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • From: Stuttgart (Germany)
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 48

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Dear colleagues,

we recently purchased the National Instruments thing. It's basically fine. But the problem is that you need the right laptop for it. In our case the problem is as follows:

just below the Express card slot of our laptop (Samsung P500) there is no room for the 3M scotch tape which holds the fixing mechanism because there is an fan exhaust. So I really don't know how to solve this problem.

Still gaffa tape seems to be the best solution.

Best regards

Andreas Neubronner

Andreas Neubronner
Tritonus Musikproduktion GmbH, Stuttgart (Germany)
www.tritonus.de

tritonus's Website

  • From: USA
  • Registered: 2007-05-05
  • Posts: 33

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Bummer! The NI clamp works so well on my laptop (ThinkPad T61p) that I never remove it. Apparently it works best on laptops without significant obstructions beneath the card slot on the back of the laptop. Perhaps a work-around is to attach the clamp upside down with the 3M Dual Lock attached to the top (palm rest). For example:

http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3593

  • Registered: 2008-09-25
  • Posts: 2

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Hello,

Just registered, and happy to join this discussion as, like Andreas, we have just begun using two MadiFace cards with two new Asus notebooks...with all the same problems. A very slight tug on the cable or the card simply pulls the card out. I have ordered a couple of the NI clamps, the Asus notebook looks like there are no obstructions underneath the slot. I'd also like to order a couple of the Exsys 10000 "stabilizers"...wondering if anyone knows a web mail-order source for this product. The link provided above is the manufacturer, with nothing but phone numbers.

Thanks,

Tim Martyn
Phoenix Audio
Glen Rock NJ
USA

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,547

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Don't know of any in the US, I'm afraid.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2008-09-25
  • Posts: 2

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Could I politely suggest that perhaps Synthax US could import a pile of these items for sale to their US MadiFace customers?

Tim Martyn
Phoenix Audio

27 Reply by su

  • su
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  • Registered: 2009-02-07
  • Posts: 10

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Hi there,
I am a happy RME user since 2001. but now I made a mistake and bought the pcie card.
it might not sound nice, but as I see now this is a whide spread, very well known problem,
I would have liked to be warned somewhere bevore purchase. something like:
"you must be very very lucky to have a laptop that holds the card stable in the slot"
in my thinkpad I basically can make the card disconnect by looking at it.
its compeletly useless, now I have to send it back. I think for a 319,- professional audio solution (what excactly makes this card that pricy?) I would have expected that it ships at least with the above mentioned stabilisation adapter or something.
its disapointing. because: also the whole card doesnt look high qualitiy at all. the part with the firewire slot feels verticaly very easy breakable.
cheers,
su

  • isaac
  • isaac
  • S/Mux specialist
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  • From: Auckland New Zealand
  • Registered: 2007-05-01
  • Posts: 339

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

su wrote:

Hi there,
I am a happy RME user since 2001. but now I made a mistake and bought the pcie card.
it might not sound nice, but as I see now this is a whide spread, very well known problem,
I would have liked to be warned somewhere bevore purchase. something like:
"you must be very very lucky to have a laptop that holds the card stable in the slot"
in my thinkpad I basically can make the card disconnect by looking at it.
its compeletly useless, now I have to send it back. I think for a 319,- professional audio solution (what excactly makes this card that pricy?) I would have expected that it ships at least with the above mentioned stabilisation adapter or something.
its disapointing. because: also the whole card doesnt look high qualitiy at all. the part with the firewire slot feels verticaly very easy breakable.
cheers,
su

Glad you joined the forum to whinge about this. Great.

Seiously dude, it's a problem with the mechanical specification of the slot. Did you research on this forum before you bought the card?

Also remember RME are a small company. We get to talk to the people who actually design and build the gear, and write the drivers.

Give RME a break/benefit of the doubt! They don't plan everything about their gear to make life hard for you personally. I'm sorry they can't redesign the PCIe physical format to suit you.

Chill out, make some music and enjoy life some.

Isaac.

29 Reply by su

  • su
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  • Registered: 2009-02-07
  • Posts: 10

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

hey isaac,
I can see that its sometimes maybe better to wait a day before writing in the certain moment of
dissapointement. actually I was very stressed because I have a lot of music work to do. so I would really like to make music, but actually also the card completely fails to install and I didnt get any answere abaout that issue the last days. also I might have to explain to you that all this has a history:
I wrote some emils to RME last year with questions about the PCIe card before buying it that have never been answered.
beeing a long time costumer that actually is not really satisfing.
so maybe you should better let them speak for themselfes.
thank you.
su

  • From: Holland
  • Registered: 2007-05-02
  • Posts: 12

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Would USB to Express Card Adapter work? (throughput wise etc.)
see here and here

http://site.eforcity.com/pic/POTHUSBEXAD1_2_efc.jpg

(You could gaffa tape the whole thing)

Studio Wijnbergen | HDSPe MADI/ADI-648 | Win7_64 Pro | Nuendo 5.5

Raymond's Website

  • Ulrich
  • S/Mux specialist
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  • Registered: 2008-05-31
  • Posts: 315

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Yes, I use EX-10000 together with taping and it really works. I use crepe tape, BTW... Maybe RME should provide a roll of tape together with the MADIface...

Regards,
Ulrich

  • Registered: 2009-06-20
  • Posts: 19

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Please, Does anybody know how to get hold of the EXSYS ex-1000.
I live in Sweden and no one seems to deliver here.
Maybe RME can distribute to their customers.

Regards Anders SDT

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,547

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

Mail me, I'll help you find a source in Germany or I'll privately arrange something. They are only around ? 3 or 4 around here.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2008-03-16
  • Posts: 21

Re: Problems mounting ExpressCard into a Laptop

I can not believe this is reality.
I just bought a new 2000€ Notebook (Lenovo P70) and a 67€ Sonnet FireWire 800 Pro ExpressCard34 just to find out that the ExpressCard Standard is bullshit build cause ExpressCards do not lock at all. So you have to use tape to try to lock it. How can such a crap become a standard? Unbelievable.